I'm really loving this manga. Having a mix of femboys/crossdressers, plus obviously trans and non-conforming characters in the same story, and making a point to differentiate them is something I was wanting to see for quite a long time! <3
But... "girlyboy" really? That's cringy AF. Nobody says that. Why couldn't you just translate it as "femboy" or "trap" instead? Those are the words everybody actually uses!
Femboy sounds a bazillion times better than "girlyboy", and it's already established to fit the context. And considering all the fuss they make out of the term, even "trap" would be a surprisingly good match, as it mimics the IRL drama over its usage, don't you think?
I'm assuming that it's because of the IRL drama over the usage of the term "trap" that has caused Hachimitsu to stop using it. Since I remember that in all their past releases for other series involving crossdressing characters they always used the term "trap". That being said I do agree that the term "girlyboy" just sounds super cringy.
Why not just use the original "otoko no musume" instead? Or "otokonoko" to shorten it? I'm sure most manga reader these days already know the term and it doesn't sound cringy. There's also "Man's Daughter" but it seems like English will always sound cringy regardless of what you do. One can also put TL note somewhere if using "otokonoko".
TBH my anime/manga community found "femboy" to be pretty foreign. Probably just my part of the world since we've always used "trap" and "trans" without any issues. Just something to note, but "otokonoko" is recognized universal/globally.
Otokonoko is not a translation, it’s a lack of one, and that is something we simply do not do. I realize no matter what we go with there will be problems, but the point is to lessen them wherever possible. We can’t please everyone after all.
As a transgender person I naturally feel the term trap is extremely offensive when used to refer to someone that is transgender. But I don't get why it's so wrong to call crossdressing boys who identify as boys by the term trap. I mean the term had long been known by many as a way of referring to crossdressing characters in anime and manga. So I personally don't feel it's wrong to use the term trap as long as it's used within the appropriate context.
That being said I feel like girlyboy or femboy make way more sense than trap in the context of this particular manga. Since Mogumu was objecting to the boy part of girlyboy after all.
What's the original word used in japanese? Otokonoko? Okama? Josou-shonen or something like that? I'm assuming it must be one of those three because they mention it being a label the customers immediatly recognize.
That's why "girlyboy" sounds awkward to me, because it's not really the common term used to refer to the phenomenon in english, yet the plot gives it that meaning. The words I see used the most are "trap", "femboy" and "tomgirl" (but, PLEASE ignore that third one, as it's even cringier).
I'm just rambling, though, so don't take me too seriously.
Otokonoko is the original word is this series. Okama and josou shounen have their own translations, neither of which are applicable to otokonoko. So if femboy is a common translation, then that’s what we’ll go with.
Actually my pet peeve is when the lines “has the heart of a girl” “ girl on the inside “ “ my older sister is actually a boy” Why not just call these characters Transgender?
I find it odd too ME. But as Hachimitsu pointed out they're simply just translating what is being said. So if you want to blame someone for it then blame Japanese authors who often use those terms rather than transgender.
Out of all the above mentioned translation. I think most of them are better than "feman" or "mangirl". The "girlyboy" is still the most cringy out of all.
The problem is how many ignorant westerners are reading this stuff? It cannot be that many to have to so throughly localize a translation? Otokonoko etc are all slang terms and clearly a hard translation. I have always thought it a lazy viewer or reader who needs such simplification. I can say if you really want to use collical english, most westerners would call these kids faggots or homos through ignorance. Femboy girlyboy etc are nich terms if used at all so translation or not, the managa is placed in japan make lazy readers work some on their part. Leave the original slang in place. It allows in the readers to understand the term on sight and in context much better than any western equilivant and it's own conotations. I do not know what lame drama is going on with "trap" but it is more used and a lable with closter meaning in english. I say trap in context here in calif and it is known i refer to a boy crossdressed and passable as a girl, many tag sites use this term. Even uses it pixiv as a replacer eng word for otokonoko. Realy using some localozed word is like calling your readers out as ignorant and lazy. Google is just a click a way, or tap etc.
From what I've seen other people say online it seems that transgender people have demonized the term "trap". Because apparently some people on the internet were using the term to insult transgender people. So I can fully understand why it would be wrong to use the term to refer to a transgender person. But I don't see why they had to go so far as to outright demonize using the term period. Since as you said the term "trap" was largely favored by many sites as the term to refer to crossdressing guys. So I don't really understand why they've got such a problem with people referring to crossdressing men who identify as males as traps. After all from what I've heard they apparently don't have any issue with people calling a crossdresser by the term "crossdresser". Even though "trap" was just a slang term for "crossdresser" in the first place.
I can understand the annoyance of when someone called you by the wrong term, such as calling a trans, a trap. But really, I also don't see the reason to completely demonize "trap" as a term for cross dressing boys. Annoying things happens daily, there's no reason to get offended by every little thing. Hell, even I got called out by random Indian dude at train station toilet, "It's gents" and I just laugh it off.
Pixiv uses femboy, trap and tomgirl in their encyclopedia. In my opinion those should be fine. Or just otokonoko.
All works reflect the society they were made in, but I wouldn't take any pride in having fear of political born ignorance keep you from using the terms you think most accurate.
I love Mogumo <3
ReplyDeleteI'm really loving this manga. Having a mix of femboys/crossdressers, plus obviously trans and non-conforming characters in the same story, and making a point to differentiate them is something I was wanting to see for quite a long time! <3
ReplyDeleteBut... "girlyboy" really? That's cringy AF. Nobody says that. Why couldn't you just translate it as "femboy" or "trap" instead? Those are the words everybody actually uses!
Femboy sounds a bazillion times better than "girlyboy", and it's already established to fit the context. And considering all the fuss they make out of the term, even "trap" would be a surprisingly good match, as it mimics the IRL drama over its usage, don't you think?
I'm assuming that it's because of the IRL drama over the usage of the term "trap" that has caused Hachimitsu to stop using it. Since I remember that in all their past releases for other series involving crossdressing characters they always used the term "trap". That being said I do agree that the term "girlyboy" just sounds super cringy.
ReplyDelete@Dysphonic Fennec & Vallamari
DeleteIf that’s the general opinion, then we’ll use femboy in future releases. Trap is obviously a no-go now, hence why we stopped using it years ago.
Why not just use the original "otoko no musume" instead? Or "otokonoko" to shorten it? I'm sure most manga reader these days already know the term and it doesn't sound cringy. There's also "Man's Daughter" but it seems like English will always sound cringy regardless of what you do. One can also put TL note somewhere if using "otokonoko".
DeleteTBH my anime/manga community found "femboy" to be pretty foreign. Probably just my part of the world since we've always used "trap" and "trans" without any issues. Just something to note, but "otokonoko" is recognized universal/globally.
DeleteOtokonoko is not a translation, it’s a lack of one, and that is something we simply do not do. I realize no matter what we go with there will be problems, but the point is to lessen them wherever possible. We can’t please everyone after all.
Delete@Hachimitsu Scans
DeleteAs a transgender person I naturally feel the term trap is extremely offensive when used to refer to someone that is transgender. But I don't get why it's so wrong to call crossdressing boys who identify as boys by the term trap. I mean the term had long been known by many as a way of referring to crossdressing characters in anime and manga. So I personally don't feel it's wrong to use the term trap as long as it's used within the appropriate context.
That being said I feel like girlyboy or femboy make way more sense than trap in the context of this particular manga. Since Mogumu was objecting to the boy part of girlyboy after all.
If you feel offended, it is better to kys than bothering people.
DeleteWhat's the original word used in japanese? Otokonoko? Okama? Josou-shonen or something like that? I'm assuming it must be one of those three because they mention it being a label the customers immediatly recognize.
ReplyDeleteThat's why "girlyboy" sounds awkward to me, because it's not really the common term used to refer to the phenomenon in english, yet the plot gives it that meaning. The words I see used the most are "trap", "femboy" and "tomgirl" (but, PLEASE ignore that third one, as it's even cringier).
I'm just rambling, though, so don't take me too seriously.
Otokonoko is the original word is this series. Okama and josou shounen have their own translations, neither of which are applicable to otokonoko. So if femboy is a common translation, then that’s what we’ll go with.
ReplyDeleteAFAIK, the "otokonoko" phenomenon doesn't really exist in the west/english-speaking world, so there's no true proper translation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DeleteOnline femboy communities are just the closest thing I could think off, mostly because of the intersectin with weebs.
Actually my pet peeve is when the lines “has the heart of a girl” “ girl on the inside “ “ my older sister is actually a boy” Why not just call these characters Transgender?
ReplyDeleteThat would be interpretation, not translation.
DeleteI find it odd too ME. But as Hachimitsu pointed out they're simply just translating what is being said. So if you want to blame someone for it then blame Japanese authors who often use those terms rather than transgender.
DeleteOut of all the above mentioned translation. I think most of them are better than "feman" or "mangirl". The "girlyboy" is still the most cringy out of all.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is how many ignorant westerners are reading this stuff? It cannot be that many to have to so throughly localize a translation? Otokonoko etc are all slang terms and clearly a hard translation. I have always thought it a lazy viewer or reader who needs such simplification. I can say if you really want to use collical english, most westerners would call these kids faggots or homos through ignorance. Femboy girlyboy etc are nich terms if used at all so translation or not, the managa is placed in japan make lazy readers work some on their part. Leave the original slang in place. It allows in the readers to understand the term on sight and in context much better than any western equilivant and it's own conotations. I do not know what lame drama is going on with "trap" but it is more used and a lable with closter meaning in english. I say trap in context here in calif and it is known i refer to a boy crossdressed and passable as a girl, many tag sites use this term. Even uses it pixiv as a replacer eng word for otokonoko. Realy using some localozed word is like calling your readers out as ignorant and lazy. Google is just a click a way, or tap etc.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've seen other people say online it seems that transgender people have demonized the term "trap". Because apparently some people on the internet were using the term to insult transgender people. So I can fully understand why it would be wrong to use the term to refer to a transgender person. But I don't see why they had to go so far as to outright demonize using the term period. Since as you said the term "trap" was largely favored by many sites as the term to refer to crossdressing guys. So I don't really understand why they've got such a problem with people referring to crossdressing men who identify as males as traps. After all from what I've heard they apparently don't have any issue with people calling a crossdresser by the term "crossdresser". Even though "trap" was just a slang term for "crossdresser" in the first place.
DeleteI can understand the annoyance of when someone called you by the wrong term, such as calling a trans, a trap. But really, I also don't see the reason to completely demonize "trap" as a term for cross dressing boys. Annoying things happens daily, there's no reason to get offended by every little thing. Hell, even I got called out by random Indian dude at train station toilet, "It's gents" and I just laugh it off.
DeletePixiv uses femboy, trap and tomgirl in their encyclopedia. In my opinion those should be fine. Or just otokonoko.
While I don't necessarily understand the concept of non-confirming, I'm enjoying watching Mogumo grow as a person and feel accepted.
ReplyDeleteMogumo is now my waifu? husbando? hmmm idk... trapfu? Gotta love Mogumo and Suzu. Maybe I should cosplay them? :thonking:
DeleteAll works reflect the society they were made in, but I wouldn't take any pride in having fear of political born ignorance keep you from using the terms you think most accurate.
ReplyDelete